PC Specs, Installations, Portability and General Knowledge

Beginners
1

Hi everyone!

First I would like to say how impressed I am with the magnitude of people willing to give helpful advice here! I have been doing research on the Internet for a couple of days now but failed to find the answers in one place, most of the information I found was scattered, inconsistent and in some cases felt dated. I scoured Google and Reddit and only now realised that the best place to find information is to contact the community itself. I would like to apologise in advance for a topic that’s bound to receive “someone has already asked this” comments, but would still like to get some input based on my specific situation and requirements.

I’ll preface by saying that at the moment my knowledge of computer components, systems required for my envisioned work and general understanding of installation logistics is close to none. I am a musician first and have been using a very wide array of hardware and software tools throughout the years. Thus I’m fluent in my knowledge of hardware audio gear as well as Ableton DAW, I am also in the beginning stages of learning to integrate Max MSP with my projects and to develop further ideas. I feel like the latter comes a bit easier to me than an average user since I’ve spent a number of years tinkering with modular synthesisers, I already have a number of cool ideas for audio installation work and can imagine how to bring these ideas to life on a technical level. About a year ago I discovered TouchDesigner and my mind was blown, visual arts were always very close to my heart and are an inseparable part of my identity as an artist. As I rinsed through the free tutorials available on this site and YouTube I began to integrate TouchDesigner in my projects, mainly by making audio/midi reactive visuals to accompany not only my music but my friends bands as well. Just to clarify, I have never received payment for my work with the free version of TouchDesigner, not because it’s not allowed, but because the limited resolution makes me feel insecure (pretty bad mindset I know, but we all have our illogical flaws haha). So far the computers that I am using for my projects are: MacBook Pro 2015 for Ableton and MAX an old ASUS ROG gaming laptop for Blender and TouchDesigner. I have connected TouchDesigner to Ableton via a LAN cable and so far haven’t had any hiccups. I have yet to figure out how to connect MAX to TouchDesigner, but it’s not a priority and I am sure it’s easy to find on these forums. My other setup includes a couple of midi controllers and hardware samplers and a 1080p projector that I carry under my arm whenever I have an AV performance.

One of my biggest worries in life is that I’ve spent years wasting my life away on jobs that have no long-term value and sacrificed my time delivering food or making sure rich snobs are pampered, instead of actually being paid for work that I consider my hobby and that allows me to hone my skills and pick up new ones as I work. NO LONGER! I am happy to say that I’ve accumulated enough wealth to purchase a commercial TouchDesigner license and build a proper PC that would accompany me to gigs and art installations.

Now that we know each other a bit better here are my questions, requirements and concerns regarding building a good enough PC, performing, fulfilling commissioned work and other technical challenges I do not know exist yet. I find it absolutely confusing coming from no coding / technical background into the world of TouchDesigner, particularly the lingo and technical terms are what gives me nightmares.

  1. TouchDesigner commercial license:
  • I am completely confused as to how people make money using TouchDesigner, I realise that people get paid for performances, art installations, standalone applications. However how does that actually happen? Does one bring their own PC to a gig or an installation space and just plugs in an HDMI cable? How about larger scale performances like festivals that have multiple projector/screen setups that are not necessarily a 16:9 format but can be an abstract shape with a built in display?
  • How does one accommodate for long-term or permanent installations? Does that involve the client paying for a dedicated PC that will permanently stand in the space tucked away in some corner? Wouldn’t that be horribly expensive for just some permanent interactive play area in a kindergarten as an example? If that’s the case, who’s responsible for launching said installation everyday or restarting it if the power goes down? And is the standard commercial license enough for that?
  • TouchDesigner and TouchPlayer. Why does one need to purchase a TouchPlayer license? Is it solely needed so that the other person couldn’t access the project you worked so hard on? Or is that what’s used for the client to launch the “application” everyday? What if there are multiple installations across the country that need to be running permanently, does one need multiple TouchPlayer licenses for that?
  • Media Servers. If someone would kindly explain the general purpose of media servers for TouchDesigner work in simple words?
  1. Building a TouchDesigner compatible PC.
  • My budget is up to €4000.
  • The computer will be used to run Ableton and TouchDesigner simultaneously. I have been reading the three articles under the “HOW TO SPEC A TOUCHDESIGNER PC” name, but honestly it left me with even more questions. As I understood (and correct me if I am wrong) TouchDesigner is very CPU intensive (of course depends on the project), however Ableton can be very CPU intensive as well especially with third party plugins. Is it wise to run both programs on the same machine, how does one avoid hiccups and stuttering? Since I have no other options but to run both of these softwares at the same time, what CPU should I opt for?
  • GPU’s. The GPU topic is one that brings me nightmares, and not only because of the price, but mostly because it seems like I want the best of both worlds. Let me explain. I am an avid gamer and the PC that I want to build has to be not only a gigging / interactive installation powerhouse but also a gaming machine that will run anything fully spec’d out for the upcoming 3 to 4 years. But while researching I discovered that while games run great gaming GPU’s (duh) TouchDesigner and other professional graphic softwares benefit from workstation GPU’s more. And unfortunately with the limited time that I’ve researched these topics and almost tore my hair out in despair it does not seem like there’s a middle ground?
  • Multiple screens. This falls under the GPU category. From what I understand gaming GPU’s are not the best when it comes to performing on multiple projectors and screens fluently and without an occasional stutter? I am not sure if it’s a stupid question but at what number of displays does this become an issue? Does Nvidia G-Sync for gaming GPU’s play any role in making sure this doesn’t happen or happens less often?
  • Portability. I travel a lot, I often have gigs in different countries and flying with my gear is always a hassle. Currently my ideal setup is a beautiful, modular 19inch rack that neatly houses my music gear, PC, and a retractable monitor and a keyboard with a trackpad. Something that I could roll out of my apartment without having to disconnect and later reconnect a million cables, a true plug-in-and-play baby. I have also been looking into some great solutions like PC’s built into suitcases and rugged flight-cases that have integrated monitors/keyboards. Also, do such cases have a specific name since they are so hard to come by with just a google search? I will attach some images of the cases that inspired me below.
  • Space, temperature and vibration. With the requirements and ideas listed above I am becoming increasingly worried about the following: Is it a good idea to build gaming/workstation grade pc into repurposed 19inch racks or flight cases? How do I make sure that there is enough space for components and that it’s easily accessible for future component upgrades? What if I want to upgrade my GPU but it’s significantly bigger than the previous one? What about cooling, how do I make sure that the computer will not overheat while performing outside in summer or in a cramped warehouse? If the computer is always with me on the stage does it risk to be damaged or the performance to be affected by large quantities of vibration and if yes, how do I eliminate it? And most importantly how do I build something like this without even seeing a RAM stick on it’s own, meaning I have absolutely no experience in building machines like that, especially in weird chassises.

The last word. Dear friend, if you are still reading this and haven’t been enraged by my possibly noobish questions then you truly deserve a medal. I hope there are enough kind souls that are willing to help me out with this puzzle. I find myself in quite a scary place because there is so much information and so many aspects that I seemingly need to consider and I simply don’t know where to start and which straw to grab at this point. If you see that I lack knowledge that is considered basic in the TouchDesigner community and the professional world of interactive art, please do let me know where I should start my journey to get to know this exciting world a bit better. I am a music nerd but not a computer wiz and ultimately I just want to make art and enrich people’s lives with experiences that they would not soon forget. My urge to delve deeper into the world of interactivity and code-art comes from a place of joy and curiosity, and so far my curious ass is frightened by how much I don’t know.

Thank you for your patience!

EDIT: Forgot to add images.

Case 1
Case 11280Ă—876 94.1 KB
Case 2
Case 21024Ă—768 80.1 KB
Case 3

2 Likes
2

What a huge question! I will try to answer to what I know.
Personaly, I work mainly for theater and dance, I am paid during the creation process (brainstorming, rehearsal), when it is a big tour, I prepare a computer with a commercial licence and a dedicated video tech or the sound tech or the light tech is in charge of the setting. Sometimes, for very experimental and few venues, I am here to do the work. The global setting (computer, cables etc.) is totaly dependant of the project and the budget, no rules, only negociation as everywhere but is part of art.
Same thing for permanent installation, computer bought or build especialy and touchplayer is made for that, a reduced price licence running without change.
Media server are just super computer with fast SSD, multiple GPU with multiple output with redondant power made specialy for performance. If you need 12 4K output working 7/24 there is no alternative.
I think its not a good idea to have Ableton and TD on the same machine. TD is more GPU intensive, for my taste sound is easier and better on MacOs and TD better on Windows with nVidia cards. If you really need one machine, CPU is not really the problem because they are on different threads.
Concerning GPU, if you can afford Quadro, go to it. I use only geForce and for TD, if you doesnt multiple GPU, its very sufficient. With a RTX1080, you can run a bunch of images on 4 4K screens. Quadro can be linked and have 10 bits output. Some say they are more resilient also.
You need a control screen, so you have 3 4K outputs available, you can have 12 HD using Matrox or Datapath.
Dell make great rack modular computer, it can be a good start. In the big model (some media server are made from it), you can use any GPU card available.
For the solidity, I have no sufficient experience and I work in underfounded projects…
Hope that helps

2 Likes
3

Welcome @creoanima

There’s a lot to respond to here - so I’ll try to stay focused. Forgive some smaller form responses over time rather than one long one.

TouchDesigner is the tool that many folks use for doing their work. You’ll sometimes see job postings for a TouchDesigner programmer, but that tends to be studios or organizations that already have a working pipeline and they need help specific to that domain. More generally, installation and events work comes through RFP (Requests for Proposal) or working with an agency that’s trying to bring something to life - a brand experience, an installation, etc.

For events, it’s common to bring some or all of the hardware you’re going to use. If you’re doing a VJ set in a club, then you likely bring your laptop / computer and connect to their existing system. If you’re doing a larger projection mapping event then you provide the equipment. This is usually a range of owned and rented equipment. High power projectors are pricey, so that equipment is usually more economical to rent, where as your compute resources are better to own (typically, though sometimes you rent these too).

There’s usually a budget for the equipment that goes into the installation. Depending on the RFP you may put together a proposal for a complete package (this packaged price includes all of the costs that might be associated with the project), or there may be a specification that the budget for installation hardware is separate and to be negotiated in a later stage of the project. It is expensive, and it’s not uncommon for the budgets for hardware to be high - even for simple looking installations.

You typically negotiate this with the client - and then build an approach that fits those needs. That might look like an installation that’s automated and turns on / off at a regular time every day, or there might be start-up instructions where you train an operator or provide a user manual. I never deliver a project where the client will touch anything inside of a TouchDesigner network - there’s always a UI layer that they interact with. So a big piece here is thinking through all of the edge cases around operation and making sure that the app you’ve built handles those conditions.

The full TD license allows for editing, changing, and manipulating a project, where as TouchPlayer only plays back the toe file and doesn’t allow for editing. TouchDesigner currently has a license per machine model, so you’re correct that in understanding that you’d need a license per machine that’s running your application. That, however, could just be TouchPlayer if you don’t need to edit your project on that machine. It’s also typically more economical to purchase TouchPlayer - so if you’re budgeting for the deployment cost of an installation you might purchase TouchPlayer for the installation machines rather than a full TouchDesigner license.

Media server is a fancy way of saying “Computer that will play content.” That could be real time content, that could be video, that could be audio, it could be LOTs of things… the important thing here is that a Media Server is just a computer that plays some type of content. That being said, one typically thinks of a media server as having a built solution for handling playing, sequencing, routing, and controlling that media.

Examples of media servers - Disguise, Watchout, QLab, PandorsBox, Resolume, etc.

You could build your own media server with TouchDesigner, and in fact lots of us have done that before… Touch itself isn’t a media server, but it gives you all the things you need for building one. Just like with legos you can build lots of different things - a car, a plane, a submarine - but legos themselves aren’t a car, a plane, or a submarine, they can just be assembled and transformed into them.

2 Likes
4

Having a budget is a great place to start. The next piece I’d recommend is to set-up a spreadsheet where you can start to track your costs. There are some pieces that you should remember to account for that can be frustrating to think about later. I usually start my TD Workstation budgets with the cost of a Windows license, and the cost of a TD license. From there as you start to add / remove line items you can see how that tracks against your total budget.

Touch uses both CPU and GPU resources. SOPs, and CHOPs are especially CPU focused, so if you’re work uses these families a lot you’ll want to think more carefully about what CPU to purchase. TOPs however, are mostly GPU focused.

Touch is currently largely single threaded - meaning that runs on one core (mostly), and that it doesn’t distribute tasks to other threads as a general rule. What that means is that you generally want a CPU with fewer faster cores, than many slower cores. For some computing tasks (web services especially) more cores is generally better, but in the world of rendering visuals, fewer faster cores is still the direction to think about when buying a CPU.

I generally aim for the Intel CPU line - though AMD is quickly catching up and have a number of competitive options. My general recommendation is that you want a quad core i7 3.5Ghz or better processor (you really want the best CPU you can afford, but this is usually the minimum recommendation I make). There’s a big caution there as your results will vary depending on what you’re doing. There’s no hard and fast rule here… but you’ll be happy if you have at least the above.

For years at Obscura we used gaming GPUs - and for many installations / events these will do just fine. It requires more work, and has some other hassles associated with it… but you can definitely use the gamer hardware rather than Quadro hardware - and if this is your first real TD workhorse you’re building, you might aim for a gamer card first. You can always upgrade later. Quadros become very important for demanding permanent installations because of their reliability, their attachment to custom service, and a number of other pro features.

Something to understand about gaming GPUs - usually what happens is that a company like NVidia sells the rights to produce a video card that’s branded as NVidia - they provide some components, but the assembly, packaging, and resale is handled by a third party. So, when you’re trying to trouble shoot a problem with your GPU you’ll get stuck in a run-around. Calling the card manufacturer, then calling NVidia. Nine times out of ten, NVidia won’t help you if you have a gamer GPU. So, if you’re building a permanent installation and you need manufacturer support if something goes wrong - from a liability perspecitve, the Quadro line will help you sleep better at night. \

The other big thing here is display synchronization. Gaming GPUs have no guarantee of tear free performance. See here for more about tearing.

0_HEeFFLGWteLmoxly_

Full stop. There are lots of ways to avoid tearing, to work around it, to fix it when it pops up… but a non-Quadro card in the Nvidia family has no guaranteed mechanism to prevent this. The Quadro line does. This is not usually a problem on a single display, but if you’re working with lots of projectors or monitors (or especially with video walls) then this can be a deal breaker. For VJ gigs in clubs, and some installations your gamer GPU is totally okay. For high profile clients or work, you should use Quadro hardware - especially as this is usually another budget.

Like mentioned above, gaming GPUs can do just fine… it’s just usually more work to make sure they’re fine. Refresh rate plays a big part. Moving images on a screen are really a lie… it’s an magic trick that your brain falls for. We usually talk about refresh rate as a measurement of how many times per second the image on your screen is re-drawn, or re-freshed. Just an infinite flipbook, your screen is an ever changing set of still images that our brains see as moving. Why this maters is because your GPU (and CPU to some extent) are responsible for synchronize the drawing instructions on the computer with what’s drawn on the screen. This is usually brokered between your GPU and monitor. Most screens can only refresh up to a specif speed… 30 Hz, 60 Hz, and 144Hz are all common refresh rates these days. Hertz (Hz) is a standard measurement of cycles per second. Gaming and Video applications often use the Frames Per Second notation… but we can really use these interchangeably for graphics.

Where we get into trouble is when we have displays that are connected to a single GPU with different refresh rates. Which means that your GPU now has to figure out how to handle multiple conditions for when to redraw the screen, or which screen to redraw when. This is where gamer cards don’t usually shine - there are a few features that can help here, but it can cause LOTs of problems. While displays can use things like G-Sync, you usually end up with a few other challenges where that’s not enough data to really maintain the sync you want.

For big installations or in broadcast contexts you’ll often need “house sync” or a way to make sure that all the video related technology has synchronized clock. This kind of synchronization is only available on Quadro cards currently.

How many displays is a hard question because that really comes down to how you’re handling video. For example, you’re limited by the number of outputs on a given video card… but these days those are often 4k resolution. Modern NVidia GPUs pretty comfortably push 4 x 4k outputs, which could then be cut up by a video matrix into 16 HD outputs. There’s a whole video engineering question here that could really be it’s own post.

This is always hard. Always. Rack mounted cases are usually what I end up doing for permanent installations. Pop-up gallery and events are usually something smaller - and have been all different sizes. Those custom traveling pieces are usually fairly custom (and costly).
https://www.wilsoncase.com/product-category/custom-shipping-cases/computer/

The search term here is Road Case - so something like Custom PC Road Cases or Custom PC Flight Cases will help you find answers.

Rack mounts are usually fine - you do need to make sure there’s extra cooling, and that your environment is within the operating specs of your hardware. You can also add extra cooling solutions to help keep your CPU and GPU temperatures under control. That said, cooling is very important… and doing a set in the HOT sun is deferentially something you have to plan for.

When it comes to GPUs - full sized GPUs haven’t changed too much in the last few years. That component is usually easy to swap provided that you’ve planned for the full size rather than the smaller size that’s focused on itx sized mother boards. You should plan ahead for some expansion, though cases are usually not terrible expensive (unless you’re getting something super slick).

If it’s your first time building a PC, pull in a friend whose done it before. It’s not an especially hard progress, but having another set of hands and eyes to help will make sure you’re not just flying blind.

3 Likes
5

Wow! @raganmd @jacqueshoepffner what an eye opener! I really appreciate the time you have put in to answer in such detail. This information has really put me in a better mindset and I feel like I’m on the right track! I’m sure that this post will come in handy for other people that have similar questions.

Considering that the last time I bought a PC was about 7 years ago I am very surprised to see that gaming GPU’s seem to be significantly cheaper than they used to be (or maybe I’m just being delusional haha). At the moment I have my eyes set on the “Nvidia GeForce RTX 2080 Ti.” What are your thoughts on this graphics card, do any drawbacks come to mind apart from the stability, sync and customer support as compared to the Quadro cards?

In my original question I forgot to ask a couple of things.

  • How much RAM would you recommend? Seeing as RAM is not as expensive anymore why shouldn’t I just stick 32GB in there and call it a day? Is there a point where the difference between 16GB and 32GB while using TouchDesigner becomes less significant?
  • For installations and performances involving projectors and displays what is your preferred way of establishing the connection?
  • Are there any general tips for performances, setup, planning and most importantly learning the software that now seem obvious but when you were starting would’ve never crossed your mind?

I had a couple more questions but I’ve spent about 10 minutes staring at this post and for the life of me I can’t remember them hahaha…

By the way I had a huge sigh of relief when your responses made me realise that commissioned projects and installations that need Quadro cards would come with a budged to cover the costs, since I always spent my own savings on installations and art projects I completely forgot to consider that…

Again, thank you so much guys!

EDIT: Remembered a question I wanted to ask.

  • For your personal workstations that you physically take to performances/installations what solutions are you using for monitors/keyboards? If it is indeed a rack mount case is it something that you store in a drawer below the computer?

EDIT: Remembered another question.

  • For a rack mount PC case what U size would you recommend?
6

Go 32 if you can afford it - applications always want / need more memory, so it doesn’t hurt to have it.

All depends. For long runs I usually end up converting to cat6. Mostly I think of outputting a display port signal that will then hit a distro / video switch / or other outing solution. That’s more the case on larger installations / jobs. For smaller gigs it really depends and the lengths of runs, and what equipment is available from the venue.

Always do an installation / equipment rehearsal. Before you go to an event, disconnect and prep everything. Then walk through setting it all up as though you were doing it in the venue. I can’t tell you how many times this kind of dry run has reminded me that I needed an extra connector, extender, or the like.

I prefer wired connections if possible for events - bad wifi, or a dead battery are the worst things in these situations. I usually keep “go” set that’s separate. Set-up depends on how much space you have, and where you’re sitting. When I was doing more media design the tech table was usually bigger than situations where your equipment is on stage.

2U is pretty solid. 4U feels a little overkill IMO - unless you’ve got multiple GPUs. That’s a whole different story though.

3 Likes